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Do you think the GOP tax plan will help or hurt the nation? Operative word: 'Nation.'

Help
Hurt
Neutral
Another outcome -- please share



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11. B Hoskins CEOExpressSelect Member
     (10/25/2017 10:48:57 AM)
     Message ID #292476

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There's a lot of questions in that thar opening post!

I'll just start by saying I think the tax plan on the table will be neutral to helping or hurting.

The nation is so divided on so many fronts right now, the tax plan is just another attempt to please some, but not offend others, so it will, but that nature land neutral. The Republican platform has long been that less government and lower taxes would boost an economy and stimulate growth. So, lowering taxes (rates, and total tax revenues) would require budget cuts, to avoid adding more to the deficit.

But, with the current atmosphere of hostility towards racism, sexism, and hostility between classes, the only option that appeals to the masses is to 'stick it to the man.' It would be popular to the masses to raise rates or not lower the taxes to the 'rich.' If the Republicans do that, they risk not getting re-elected by the people that just want their elected representatives to do exactly what they promised. If the Republicans propose lowering for all, then the nation rises in protest that you're letting 'the man' get away with the obscenity of staying rich!

The lunacy of the 'think state' of our nation is easily illustrated by the suggestion that Weinstein is a racist because so few people of color are rising up claiming sexual assault or harassment within the Hollywood ranks. Since when do we care about whether a pervert is an equal-rights violator of women? So he should have assaulted an equal portion of women of color? Give me a break.

We have several problems with our tax system. One problem is it currently redistributes wealth to the poor, many of whom are not really poor, per se, but taking advantage of the handouts in exchange for continuing to not work or be motivated to contribute anything to the fisc.

Another problem is the definition of 'rich.'

For 2017, married taxpayers' income in excess of $153K is taxed incrementally at 28%. Their income in excess of $233% is taxed at 33%. Additional income in excess of $417K is taxed at 35%, and income over $471K is taxed at 39.6%. This excludes taxes that they're paying on wages or self employment to fund social security at 7.65% or 15.3%. It also excludes the extra net investment tax that they may pay on interest/dividends/gains, and other income from investments.

This also excludes what the states levy as taxes for sales tax, property tax, or state income tax.

I don't know many people who have $250K income who think they're rich. Most folks I know who make income in the $100K range think their cash flow it too little to enable them to plan to pay for college, weddings, or retirement, much less all three. So, annual income should not define 'rich' as many of those are two paychecks away from being insolvent if not just flat broke.

People like Perot, Bass, Hunt, Cuban, Gates, Trump, Walton, Kennedy, Buffett, Koch, Mars, Cargil-MacMillan, Cox, Rockefeller, Goldman, Du Pont.... yeah, they're rich. Then you have the celebrity wealth from sports or Hollywood (Diddy, Beyoncé, Stern, King James, DeGeneres, Lucas, Spielberg, Oprah, etc.). Yep, they're rich too.

Then we have folks like Bush, Clinton, Obama (quickly rising), Kerry, Gore.... also rich. Some of them got rich off the public... speaking, foundations, books, all after leaving office.

But, if you have a guy who has gross income of $350K, taxable income of $$300K, and pays $100K in taxes, and has net worth of $500K, is he rich?

12. B Hoskins CEOExpressSelect Member
     (10/25/2017 10:54:49 AM)
     Message ID #292477

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Our current system assumes that the size of our government systems (Fed and state) should stay the same, or grow. But, if the middle class is shrinking, the lower class is growing, and the numbers of truly wealth are shrinking, even if their wealth is increasing, how much more can we raise taxes withtout either wiping our the rich or motivating them to move out leaving us with a debt that the rest of 'us' can't sustain?

If you follow the money... I don't see a lot of deep weaithy people that believe that they should pay 10 times more than the next guy. I certainly don't see the Clintons who got fat and happy with their foundation willing to deplete their new wealth by paying it all back.

So if the premise is to leave government at the current size or larger, then I see the tax plan as moving chairs around on the Titanic. The nation will get further divided in more areas, adding class warfare to sexual warfare and racial warfare and political warfare. How many ways can we be so divided and survive? Neutral is as good as the tax plan aims to be... which certainly is not best for the nation.

13. D Robb
     (10/25/2017 11:08:45 AM)
     Message ID #292478

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We had a much fairer tax system after WW2, a booming economy, and a much healthier distribution of wealth. In the last two decades the rich have accumulated more and more, and the middle class is disappearing. This tax plan will make a bad situation worse. The little hands guy said he was going to take care of the forgotten little guys, but everything he has done has done the opposite.

14. Andy White CEOExpressSelect Member
     Forum Moderator
     (10/25/2017 11:15:29 AM)
     Message ID #292479

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A few thoughts about running a country, a company, a county, and a family. My opinions, all. Those in quotes were written (or spoken) by others:

    To have more, want less.

    Just because you can do something, that doesn't always mean you should.

    Measure twice; cut once.

    Cut the patch to fit the hole.

    When you're deep in a hole, stop digging.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to achieve a different result."

    "You can get by on cute for about 5 minutes; after that, you'd better know something."

    "The poor will always be among you," but you don't have to work hard to be or remain poor. Just work hard. You have to do that.

    If you say you can't work or think, see Stephen Hawking.

    And, of course, there's my favorite government entitlement model: Aesop's Fable about the goose and the golden egg.
For those who don't speak or understand Euphemism, let me interpret:
    The nation can generate only so much surplus via the actions of hard working Americans and the companies they run.

    Those surpluses form our taxes. When more take than give, debt and deficit take over. If a family or company tried that, they would be on the street in a short time.

    Kudos if you can say, "I own my X, Y, and Z. I have no debt. I pay my bills every month." If you can say that, you should expect no less from everyone and every company around you and government at every level.

    If you want to give away your hard-earned money, that's your business, but it is an unsustainable approach. And, for god's sake, don't expect me to join you.


15. Tams Bixby CEOExpressSelect Member
     (10/25/2017 11:25:52 AM)
     Message ID #292480

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From my POV it seems the GOP Tax Plan will only hurt the country since as usual the politicos (in this case the GOP) just want to reduce taxes (their age old drum beat) but they still don't care about Paying the Bills and/or Reducing the Existing Deficit.

Aside from my VA Disability Benefits I pay taxes on the little amount of income I have and except for perhaps changing the %age I don't foresee that changing even if the GOP Plan becomes law because I don't itemize and I have no non-std tax deductions I can take advantage of.

I own my own car, the clothes on my back, my computer and cellphone, and the few other personal belongings I have chosen to acquire. I pay my rent (from my POV it's cheaper to rent than own courtesy of property taxes and the ongoing upkeep), utilities and credit cards in full monthly and other than that, have no debt. I hire my taxes done so I don't have to relearn the damn tax code every year.


While it won't happen (sadly) the solution to the whole country's problem is a multi-faceted approach to the Tax Quandary which would include ...
  • A Balanced Budget Amendment (which would require the Politicos to adjust the Consumption Tax (see below) to cover their annual and recurring budgeting malfeasance);
  • The elimination of ALL Loopholes and Carve Outs in the Tax Code so nobody gets any special breaks (incl the politicos themselves);
  • A Consumption Tax created on ALL purchases (both wholesale & retail) w/ the only exempt commodity "Unprepared Food" (Slicing of meat, cheese or other food items and/or pouring/dispensing quantities from bulk containers DOES NOT constitute "Preparation"; while all other mixing, cooking, etc. activities DO constitute "Preparation"); and
  • Given the Consumption Tax above, the Income Tax and IRS could be eliminated (which would please everybody).


Message edited by user at 10/25/2017 11:46:26 AM

16. Rick T CEOExpressSelect Member
     (10/25/2017 11:49:18 AM)
     Message ID #292481

This message is in response to Thomas C ( message id #292474 )  View All Related Messages

You want to eliminate the home mortgage deduction and state and local taxes? So, you want to tax me twice on the same income, all so you can get a big tax break? How about we eliminate some of your deductions, eh?

17. B Hoskins CEOExpressSelect Member
     (10/25/2017 12:12:57 PM)
     Message ID #292482

This message is in response to Rick T ( message id #292481 )  View All Related Messages

Actually, eliminating deductions doesn't tax you twice on the same income. If you have $100K income and pay $10,000 interest on your mortgage and $5,000 on property taxes, you pay tax on $85K (simple math, not necessarily how it shows on Form 1040).

If you eliminate the two deductions, you pay tax on $100K. You basically make it a tax on the full $100K where before you sheltered 15% with those deductions. In both cases the income was the same. It got partially taxed in the former, and after they eliminate your dedutions, you got fully taxed on the income.

The corporate tax is the double tax. A corporation makes $100 income and pays 35 tax. It has $65 left after paying tax. It pays a dividend to a stockholder who pays tax on the $65 dividend. Let's say the tax on the dividend is $10. That leaves $55 income after tax has been paid by corporation AND stockholder. That, of course ignores state taxes too.

18. Noel Meyer
     (10/25/2017 12:19:34 PM)
     Message ID #292483

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The GOP tax plan, explained in simplest possible terms

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/27/the-gop-tax-plan-explained-in-simplest-possible-terms/?utm_term=.4192911a391e

"The big tax code makeover President Trump and Republicans have been promising for months is finally out.

It's nine pages long. That may sound like a lengthy document, but the final bill in Congress will be hundreds of pages. What the White House released today is a framework. It's a summary of what top Trump officials and congressional Republican leaders have agreed to so far. The Trump administration says it's the job of Congress to flesh out the specifics."

I see lots of information being posted but nothing being referenced and I have yet to see Republicans SPELL OUT the details of their plan just generalities, dreams and promises TO BE DETERMINED LATER

From what I have read so far, OPINIONS and HERESAY is being posted but no hard facts and like healthcare the tax plan is a REPUBLICAN ONLY effort, no debate from others except the special interest donors to the Republican Party.

How fair can that be for the nation?

How come 'the tax plan' always looks like 'trickle down economics' from the Bush era Tax Cuts which created nothing but more money for the very richest?

19. Noel Meyer
     (10/25/2017 12:27:29 PM)
     Message ID #292484

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I'm wondering -

Puerto Rico is still mostly without power and Trump's Washington says it can't keep spending money there for long.

Nothing like that was said to Texas or Florida

What about American lands elsewhere?

California and the West is going up in flames and FEMA is out of money and yet Trump wants his wall money tied to anything he does for the Dreamers and still America outspends the world on defense even as its troops get killed from disloyal local elders and bad intel.

Some have said American can no longer afford to care for the poor the children or the elderly only those young enough to make their own way -- well someone ought to read the definition of what government is.

20. Rick T CEOExpressSelect Member
     (10/25/2017 12:29:33 PM)
     Message ID #292485

This message is in response to B Hoskins ( message id #292482 )  View All Related Messages

Clearly, I was referring to state and local taxes and, this tax plan purposes I get tax twice.

Message edited by user at 10/25/2017 12:31:39 PM
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